Again, nobody has ever questioned the legitimacy of the shopping network, it’s the AC investment scheme attached to it that’s the problem. It’s not sustainable because sooner or later you run out of new investors feeding the system.The other 10 ways of revenue are irrelevant given the above. This has been stated to you many times before yet you continue to bring up gift cards, merchants and shopping.* Goods that are delivered in to the manufacturer (or others) for repair and redesign, where you pay for some of the work and/or the materials needed.
.I have seen many good webinar presentations from earnest leaders….but my gut says no. Too damn many rules that do not make sense.Or in other words, a Ponzi scheme. Nobody is investing money with Lyoness without the expectation of a ROI so the intent is clear.Actually they been looked at in Europe by courts. A disgruntled employee took them to court on various claims but it was regarding wording in advertising.
As per the Lyoness US compensation material (the following is my summary used in this review, taken directly from Lyoness compensation plan material hidden from the public):You will probably find ideas similar to your own repeated tens of times earlier in this thread. There’s a lot of people who are unable to separate between beliefs and reality, so I’m pretty sure it already has been posted.While many countries already banned the operation of Lyoness, the company still operates freely in the US and Canada. And while Lyoness is considered a pyramid scheme in other countries, some authorities think otherwise.Lyoness’ concept is too complicated for me. I’m not specialized in any areas, and I will usually use qualified advisors when my own insight isn’t enough.I think within the context of MLM there’s no way known a giftcard without an end-product purchase constitutes a product purchase.
The gift cards are just a front after it was exposed that “downpayments” and “credit” were about an obvious Ponzi scheme as you could have.Lyoness are not a retailer, in that they retail nothing. No product or service is available for purchase from Lyoness at a retail level. Oz: Nope, because it can be bypassed altogether when participating in the Ponzi scheme business model.
You have been TOLD that it is so by Lyoness, or do you actually KNOW it works that way? There’s a major difference there.Interesting derail. Let me try it on you. In your opinion, how many people do you think you can sign up in the next year? And how many people will THEY sign up, and how much do you think they’ll shop at a Lyoness loyalty merchant? Be realistic now. To be fair, let’s say it’s a whole year (instead of the overly optimisitic “a week”)As they issue their Lyoness loyalty cards to their shoppers the same will happen to the American Accounting programme being driven by discounts given by merchants to shoppers in the form of discounts.example I buy a $300 gift card to walmart from Lyoness, lyoness must pay walmart somewhere between $225-$288) therefore the “MERCHANT” or walmart in this case has received money and a “sale” has been made. (again not relevant if it is goods, services, contracts..it is something of value offered for money)
I understand the point you are trying to make, but please understand that the “they’ve been in business for X years…” or “look at all the other reputable people who are associated with them…”, or “but it’s optional”, is a strawman’s argument.Unless you’ve got proof showing every single member of Lyoness shops at Walmar, this is a stupid conversation to have. Furthermore it’s irrelevant when discussing the ponzi nature of the business..A Ponzi scheme doesn’t need to pay out more than the amount coming in from new investors. It will only need to pay out more than the amount coming in from other sources (more than the amount coming in from merchants as Loyalty Benefits).
I have used a method identifiable for a lawyer, using a point system and logical system relatively similar to what they can find in written laws, Court orders and other legal sources. Similar to but not exactly the same.Itunes have products, so do Walmart. Lyoness has no retailable products or services. “Lyoness giftcards” cannot be used to purchase anything from Lyoness itself. Thus, comparison to actual retailers is irrelevant.
If I was a premium member I would sign anyone up. Of course signing up a premium member would be the best, but shoppers are good as well. Some people see the potential in it and some don’t.It is the whole of any business model that makes for success and isolating one aspect of any business will make for a misrepresentation of the whole. Rhetorical question: Is Peter and Ronda a bit undereducated about their own comp plan they are defending?The use of said giftcard is entirely optional in regards to receiving an AC ROI. The fact remains that a ROI is only paid out once a specified number of new investments have been made following the original investment.
So on your investment you got back 2091.00 so far, the total volume of sales is 36000.00 which 5.8 % lyoness is paying out to youOptional isn’t good enough, if it’s possible people will do it. Why have accounting units and the whole investment scheme at all?I do however agree with Oz in regards to the “option” of Downpayments on Future Purchase as a risky compensation feature. It’s not required. But nitpicking — yes it is an option. Find the right business partner. Unchecked Long List. The result are approx. 3 - 5 potential business partners who fulfill the criteria and have a serious interest in further discussions about a.. No, you can recruit people in your downline, and let them make the down-payments and fill out the matrix with the additional units.
* two posts on a local (but rather dead) pyramide forum 1 week later, attached to a general thread rather than getting its own thread (and that’s a bad sign there)For me, that is a HUGE RED FLAG. How willingly people have accepted the tricks makes it even more serious.Lyoness Europe was and is a nightmare to try and understand due to the woefully poor way the opportunity is explained and presented. Lyoness negotiates with the merchant a discount that will be given to Lyoness member. Walmart is a current member of Lyoness. I would deposit $500.00 into my lyoness account through a bank. I can purchase $500.00 worth walmart gift cards. Lyoness at this point will give out the % accordingly to its members, and you now have in your hand $500.00 in gift cards…now its up to you to go to walmart and spend it.On the surface, Lyoness looks like a regular enough cashback member rewards scheme and that part of the business I have absolutely no problem with.
Neither did Zeek’s non RPP shenadigans or their hiring of lawyers and when push came to shove, a court and the SEC only confirmed what we’d been discussing here for over half a year.Take a look at the list? It isn’t very user friendly if you’re not familiar with the companies. You’ll need to KNOW “That company do also sell new cars” before the list can be useful in any way. It’s simply not designed for normal users. The idea of having members deposit 3k into this as its a pseudo form of raising capital. I.e. rather than raise capital through the stock exchange and paying high costs an attempting to satisfy regulatory requirements they ask members to deposit 3k. Lyoness' network marketing business model is pretty unique. It's very different from the common It's not a pyramid scheme either because they have separate that part of the business to Lyconet Go back to the person who gave you Lyoness BACK OFFICE info and ask them to give you the info again – because you have misinterpreted it and you would like to give your readers the truth.
lol, the regulators will never come knocking at my door, And yet Lyoness continues to bring in new large national merchants and people keep signing up as shoppers. Lyoness have been sued in Austria for being a pyramid scheme, by one of the investors. But I don’t think pyramid rules are the correct rules to use. This year, Rennes School of Business is very proud to be welcoming three laureates Located 10 minutes from the city centre of Rennes, the Rennes School of Business campus offers an.. With all the multi million or billion dollar companies associated with Lyoness and with staffs to investigate who to do business with, put there reputations on the line, anybody that would listen to any of these bozos must be BRAIN DEAD !!!!
Now if you want to speed up this process you purchase down payment units or refer the program to your friends who will then create more shopping units. THIS is not a requirement to have a unit pay out. You acknowledge that without the Ponzi investment scheme attached, that Lyoness is no different ‘from all the other discount/cashback services‘ out there. If you’re not a fan of Ponzi schemes and are truly infatutated with the merchant shopping side of things, perhaps you’d be better served joining another discount/cashback service. rev: While you were ranting about me “tricking” you, I went ahead and did the research for you. It appears that Lyoness does send a 1099 when a member makes more than $600.27 million small business owners in the US might want to earn extra cash back. There are 47 million Sams Club shoppers. Walmart currently operates 629 stores across the nation. Safeway is operating 1,725 stores and Lowe’s another 1,749 locations. BP has 22,400 service stations and Exxon Mobil has 10,000 service stations in the US.
In this case it’s the whole AC investment scheme, which quite clearly undermines the whole shopping side of the business they try to present to the public (and any watching regulators).The individual investment will eventually turn into purchase of a giftcard. That makes it more difficult to identify Lyoness CLEARLY as an investment scheme, and to CLEARLY identify which laws to apply.That’s the problem right there. $184 in and $2300 out, it’s not mathematically sustainable.
Ponzi scheme i clarify is illegal because there is more money paid out then is coming in so it will end, WITHOUT NEW MONEY COMING IN. Lyoness AU purchases have nothing to do with it.As opposed to the catastrophic Ponzi implosion, this would be the long drawn out painful Ponzi death..g. your own favorite sales arguments. It’s a method used to MISLEAD people, so it isn’t exactly a very good strategy.
. And why the hell will someone buy vouchers to get some 1-2% discount??? I mean this is ok if you are planning to spend 5000$, but for everyday shopping this is just stupid.The main critique has been about the down payments, where people can purchase AU units directly ($3,000 down payment, gives 7+3+3 units), recruit minimum 4 other people doing the same, wait until they have recruited minimum 4 other people each doing the same, and so on and so forth, and receive different types of payouts based on other people’s investments (down payments). For examply my shop gives 2% cash back 4% LB .5 direct and indirect and 1% to lyoness. The total is 7% goes to the customer 1% goes to lyoness.
. These gift cards can be bought from other brokers/stores/the merchant themselves. It’s not a blanket open gift card. It can only be used at the designated merchant.In Canada, you can invest even more, I have seen people been invited to invest up to 10 times the amount as an initial investment. Look at the “Dragon’s Den” video in one of the articles here?But Lyoness membership requirements will soon include a shopping aspect for all membership levels very soon. For instance instead of a $3000 down payment on future shopping, it will be more like $2000 and $1000 in gift cards.For example, the MMM fund in Russia, which issued investors shares of stock and suddenly collapsed in 1994, was characterized as a Ponzi scheme.Shopping cashbacks are paid by the merchants, not Lyoness. Lyoness sure as hell aren’t paying 200%+ ROIs charging each merchant $26 USD a month.
Mat Bryant: K.Chang you are the outside looking in, so I assume that you think it will implode at some point.The cards merchants could distribute were Lyoness cash back cards, not gift cards (other than their own). Gift cards could be bought from Lyoness itself.
I’m happy to provide answers where possible but the non-Lyoness members on this blog just seem to know it all when I know many of the comments are factually incorrect. And when I pose a question it invariably never gets answered. Why? First of all Len the most you can buy in is $3000.00 creates AC1 7 units 7*$75.00=525, AC2 3 Units 3*225=$675.00 AC3 3 units 3*600=$1800.00 all adds up to $3000.00.Again, I don’t have my ducks in a row when it comes to Lyoness but perhaps someone who does can give Troy some feedback.“Risk” in itself is not THE problem. Rather, it’s the murky and vague way the scheme presents itself. If the “risk” is presented cleanly, it’s ok. Instead, they construct this
To be more precise, I identified a part of Lyoness’ business model to be a promotional pyramid, the part where people are making down-payments for giftcards, and where they can earn financial gains based on the recruitment of others (making similar down-payments) rather than from the sale or consumption of goods.“This system is a whole lot more than the few percentage you get through some bank cards.” Only if you factor in the dubious MLM aspect to the equation-which means to realize this “a whole lot more” you have to be a premium member-with no friends. truthsayer: Lyoness is not an MLM because: … Upline/downline is common terminology in any business that has word of mouth referrers, its not just specific to MLM.
A typical “Business Pack” didn’t contain any gift cards, it contained a card reader (cash back reader), some Lyoness cards and some marketing material.People should probably avoid it if they don’t feel comfortable with recruiting friends or other people as investors. We don’t have to make it more difficult than that to decide whether or not to join it.*Plans which contain elements of a lottery rewarding participants based on chance rather than on bona fide sales efforts.But how does my wife make money with the 7 “accounting units” she has. Since the first 3 already have all of their children, they can’t have any more. But the 4 accounting units at the right of the tree (Lyoness shows their trees going from left to right (parent to cild) each have no children.
The existence of a system where people “CAN” shop does not negate the fact the possibility exists for people to remain in the system and make money solely from recruiting others, who recruit others.Then I suggest you go back and have a look at the Lyoness business model, as this was clearly written in the compensation plan information from the company that I cited.
I signed up yesterday by a shop owner in the neighborhood who claims to have made 10k in just 3 months. Many stores in the neighborhood have started accepting the card too. Sorry for delay but im back to work after a few days vacation which allowed me the the time to indulge in this forum which Im sure many find helpful.The Beacon Council officials said to attract the firm they assisted Lyoness Management Americas with state and local incentives, labor, training and general community information. And that’s all. The critical viewpoint is related to that we’re trying to discover problems people should be aware of (rather than promoting something). Most other review sites are focused on promoting.And once my $75 unit matures since I am only a shopper I will receive $675 into my bank account. that I can spend any where most likely with a Lyoness merchant that will give me cash back for my purchase is this also considered a ponzi?
You’re essentially complaining about Lyoness members advertising the above AU investment scheme honestly, as opposed to disingeniously marketing the MLM income opportunity as being about shopping.Remember, you claimed that if Premium members do not shop they “drop out”, which is not the case.This seems to be saying you have to buy $300 in Gift Cards before you can make a $300 down payment towards the purchase of Gift Cards.So good luck in trying to explain your defence system in case of trouble. “I only recruited them into the free membership, and they had to do the rest of it themselves (upgrading and investments), so I’m clearly not guilty in recruiting someone into a pyramid scheme”. If that defence system fails you’re probably in deep shit.I noticed that I am creating 1 new unit every 3 months. Also one new shopper joined me and as that person does shopping from within the lyoness Merchants it will increase the speed of my units creation.
In a ponzi scheme when the pyramid gets to big, eventually the people in the end will end up holding the bag.Also wondering if the SEC will ever get these people. I mean they had never heard of them until I called them. It’s not like the SEC has a chance to review any scam that plans to open in the US which seems to be a pro-Lyoness canned response. K. Chang: if they really want to keep it legal they should dump the one part that is potentially Ponzi. After all, they have 9 more ways, right? you can make down payment for walmart if you want…you can make a top up payment if you want. If I am going to buy something at walmart i might as well benefit from it. Barney: Listen guys lyoness ain’t going anywhere 10 years old closing in on 3mill members , 42 countries and every continent on earth.
Wouldn’t that scenario be longlasting, and the system sustainable, because there are no disappointed peoples. Bunch of peoples save by shopping and they still get their savings; I’m making money thanks to themCurrent Lyoness members are very tight lipped about everything and seem to not understand it probably themselves. When asked direct questions about certain aspects they simply talk around them. But I’m interested enough to chuck in some money and push it further to see how far this thing can go.8. Accounting Unit Rebooking. Upon the payment of either the Loyalty Cash or Loyalty Credit, your accounting units will be rebooked into an accounting unit within the next accounting category. And please feel free to post comments if anyone disagrees in my viewpoints. They are clearly viewpoints and opinions, not facts. A business partnership is defined, types of partners and partnerships explained, how a The partners in a business partnership invest in the business, and each investor/partner has a share in..
Oz: Furthermore “getting in late” doesn’t negate the Ponzi scheme nature of the business. If you have to start off with a Ponzi to raise funds, it’s not legit. The merchants have nothing to do with the Ponzi scheme, as all monies are invested directly with Lyoness. Upon a fixed number of new investments being made, investors are also paid their cash ROI directly by Lyoness too.Why does everyone that backs an illegal pyramid or ponzi scheme always end their excuses with a “nothing is perfect” as if to obviate any further inspection of the business model itself?
Assume you are a brand new Lyoness member that has just received his loyalty card. He goes to buy gasolineLen Clements is a well known MLM expert, and will typically cover the legal aspects of compensation plans in details. He will typically identify other details than we do, but that goes in both directions.Also, when you say “practical analysis” do you mean via the back-office accounting program as a member or what you have read on the Lyoness site as a non-member?
Merchants negotiate there own percentages..can vary from 3% (min) to as much as 18%..(Dating Site)……Based on these numbers to get your first payout of 675+198 this is what happens…I think realistically most shoppers would not be spending more than a few hundred dollars per month at participating stores so the income just isn’t there without forcing it by buying the AUs, as you explained in your review.
People are not “shopping” the units as products, they are investing in them with the expectations of earning a positive ROI as the primary motive. Since any positive ROI only can derive from recruited members’ investments (realisticly), I have identified it to be a pyramid scheme type of investment.An example for confusion: It makes very little sense for a consumer to make “down payments on future purchases”, yet most participants seems to find that behaviour “perfectly normal”. 🙂Your argument on the gift card is simply wrong. No ifs no buts. And you use the same illogical argument on the purchase of units.
I respect Oz, Chang and the rest of the Gang here who are against ponzi schemes like bidify and all the othere crap thats on the Internet, but I love Lyoness and hope you guys can respect that.Peter Fehr: Of course it’s not a scam, otherwise they could not operate. The have iso and tuv certifications. One is management cert…and the other other is accounting cert… K. Chang: But as you said, you only get paid through 2 levels. Let’s say you got 10, and somehow they each got 10. So that’s 100 people. That means they have to do $2000 shopping PER WEEK EACH. Are you STILL sure it’s a realistic scenario? So your logic here is flawed? You’re referring to an imaginary rule from your own fantasy? Please keep it closer to reality?http://cdnlarge.lyoness.net/downloads/pdf/us/download/infos/lyo-compensation-plan-us.pdf http://cdnlarge.lyoness.net/downloads/pdf/us/download/infos/lyo-business-plan-us.pdf http://cdnlarge.lyoness.net/downloads/pdf/us/download/infos/lyo-gtc-us.pdf http://cdnlarge.lyoness.net/downloads/pdf/us/download/infos/lyo-policies-and-procedures-us.pdf
When people no longer are motivated by the income opportunity and buying AU directly / buying giftcards, they will return to their normal shopping behaviours. And normal customer behaviour is NOT to make down-payments or buying giftcards (other than as gifts).You can create all 70 units by shopping so your reward is $675.00 in cash. If you signed up 10 premium members this would create 70 units but you would get $675.00 in shopping gift cards and not cash. But you can also REINVEST the Loyalty Credits, buying additional Accounting Units. People who want to MAKE money do that, people who want to SPEND money on shopping will buy giftcards.It’s an investment you make with Lyoness on the expectation of a >100% ROI paid out when a specified number of new investments have been made after your own.Ponzi scheme i clarify is illegal because there is more money paid out then is coming in so it will end
I have no desire to defend nor bury lyoness, I am NOT an attorney, I am NOT an accountant, but this is who I am…Now, my very last point. So after all of the above, I let the premium member who introduced me to Lyoness that I was not interested at all; he was shocked and a bit pissed that he wasted his time on me and that I have a large enough customer base which he will never have access to through me, let him go after them one at a time. At present there is an investment part of Lyoness $3000 for people who want to build a business from it. Just like all business there is a risk here… Dont get involved if you dont want to or dont like the concept but dont misunderstand something and then tell others you know something is bad.
It’s SUPPOSED TO BE a SHOPPING LOYALTY program. Why encourage people to put money directly into Lyoness, instead of spending it ALL at the participating merchants? Alliance Resource Partners, L.P. is a diversified coal producer and marketer with significant Alliance is a master limited partnership with common units traded on the NASDAQ Global Select Market.. Recruitment isn’t “work” or “entrepreneural activity”, even if it’s being taxed like that. The court in Austria has already handled that question for Lyoness.
There are literally dozens of legitimate cash back sites, that work with reputable affiliate marketers. Some of you guys should consider joining and do your regular monthly shopping through Lyoness and Lyoness merchant so you can see that this is not a scam.So we, the customers migrate toward the merchants with the biggest Loyalty Benefit to acquire units faster.
Now, so say we go with the idea of trying to sign up premium members, I myself cannot even properly explain the math behind this crazy idea, so I would not even know how to get people to shell out $3000 with some crazy return on some parallel universe math. Do US members *care* whether a company complies with US laws? Nope! They simply *assume* that it’s done. Then none of this should concern you, as this is about the “shopper/unit buyer” side of things. If people don`t wait for it to mature and want to use it I think depending on the amount the item might be worth then the remaining balance will be due. Again I am not a premium with partial gift card down payments so I don`t have to worry about it.
-20 because $20 merchandise now belongs to the purchaser. (Technically the actual cost is a bit less as the company would have bought the stuff for wholesale price)No matter how I turn the figures I can’t make sens of how you make $400 each month without the investments in AU’s. And in four month, how many people in your downline can you have?So Consumers and Loyality partners will be out of the Network Marketing thing (which i like very much) and only 1) Premium Members or Members that have bought downpayments will play that game, because they believe in the idea and help it become truth around the world, that’s why they will be rewarded.So before you people keep spouting stuff about which you really have no clue, please stop and actually ask people. the worst case is your 3k will take a little longer than most to get back….so this is not illegal…
Thanks. The reason why I asked about signup country was because it was mentioned in the article found on Ted Nuyten’s website. http://www.businessforhome.org/2012/02/swiss-newspaper-crushes-lyoness/You cannot just hand over money to Lyoness, you do purchase things from retailers….again for the umpteenth time! If you can present facts I’m all ears but please type facts and refrain from assumptions. If I don’t know something I will state it and not post it as gospel. The advantage of making $3000.00 down payment with purchase $600.00 giftcards is that it makes you a level 1 career mode, instead of being a IBR or Lyoness Member.
Anton: When I were on a meeting I was told that the investments is used to “simulate” real shopping to get the system rolling.I know in Miami and New York and LA Lyoness is huge…. I believe in USA they are pushing 400,000 members…so check call them. Lyoness members are loyal shoppers and will look for you.Thanks for clarifying this, I’ve been waiting for someone to do so before editing the review. If you’re a member I’d strongly advise you telling them to change the terminology to right and left rather than above and below. I wonder HOW MANY TIMES Oz has to repeat this point, until now no Lyoness defender has been able to address this area of suspect in the Lyoness scheme.
Today, it became known that in Sydney (Australia), a group of Lyoness victims has filed a class-action law suit against Lyoness Australia. Oz: No you can’t. An account unit is nothing more than a future liability Lyoness records owed you confirming you’ve made an investment with them. Lyoness - Your shopping partner that helps you save | Lyoness USA. WayneGlenn. Lyoness - Ez a Lyoness (Magyar/Hungarian). Christ Olaf. 0:34. Lyoness Company Website - All About Lyoness..
The system that makes it work is the supposedly illegal part, the investment part of it. You’ll need to see it from that viewpoint, you can’t solely look at whether it works or not and ignore WHY it works.Recruiting premium members is important in any mlm you need to have core people to grown the business…but if thats all you did,you would be missing out, and someone u signed up actually used all 10 methods to making money the person you signed up in the end would be more successful, which means more money.Please give a complete example documenting Lyoness operating at a loss on promised and published cashback rewards. I dont know what you are talking about and you certainly didnt provide a worked out example. Sorry Oz for the confusion. Follow the money, this has nothing to do with down payments, this is the core of Lyoness business and how it survives.